Following my summary of the children off Llywelyn Fawr and you will Joanna and answers it acquired, I searched once more from the genealogical users dedicated to Gwladus Ddu. While it is true, due to the fact numerous genealogists point out, one to regarding the absence of distinct facts for some reason, the newest name of your mom out-of Gwladus Ddu must continue to be ‘unknown’, I came across need not alter my completion one to her mother try Joanna and never Tangwystyl.

She kept not a problem from the Alexander II

That then source on the subject of its college students is the pursuing the conceptual about ‘Leaders and you may Queens out-of Britain’ a well-respected book, written by Oxford College Force, web page 106:

‘Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth, b.1173, son away from Iorwerth Drwyndwn (‘Flatnose’) and you will Marared, daughter out-of Madog ap Maredudd; acc. east Gwynedd 1195; married Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John, 1205; issue: Gruffudd (illegitimate), Dafydd, Gwenllian, Helen, Gwladus, Margaret, Susanna; passed away eleven April 1240; buried: Aberconwy.’

Basic, allow me to shell out tribute in order to Sharon. Their browse getting ‘HBD’, ‘Falls the latest Shadow’ and you will ‘Brand new Reckoning’, accomplished before the regarding the online, was it really is a fantastic. Nearly what you she’s written in that trilogy really stands intimate examination now.

To prove that it is just me that thinks therefore, i would ike to offer you to genealogist who’s a good fan from Sharon: “I am really fond of Sharon Kay Penman’s books. While they commonly strictly biographical, I feel warmer counting on their try to ‘fill in the new blanks’ (because of the number of search she definitely added to their own courses), compared to indeed mentioning some genealogical supply which i attended round the inside my search (I understand we-all stumble on present that way). In order to anyone who has not even discover their unique works, I will suggest it most highly, particularly if you would like to get an end up being for what lives are instance 800 in years past.”

After the questions presented by Beth, Suzanne and you will Sandy specifically, I set about evaluating the latest identity off Joanna’s mommy (known hereafter, to possess easier source as the ‘Clemence’ perhaps not ‘Clementia’) using an event with the to help you-be-queen John. Shortly after running right up of a lot blind alleys, primarily compliment of seeking to get together again the brand new chronology of just one with the other, You will find settled on which follows. I really don’t declare that everything i wrote is definitive in just about any shape otherwise function, and also the facts are that we will in all probability not yes from their particular identity.

(a) The latest illegitimate Joanna, child regarding “Clemence,” is certainly born out of wedlock –– as it is turned out by Honorius III’s decree saying their unique legitimate for the April 1226, whether or not in the place of prejudice for the king or world of England (we.age., giving her no-claim to that particular throne). Brand new decree, which has been transcribed on the brand-new, unpublished Check in out of Honorius III (Reg. Vat. thirteen, fol. 122 ), says inter alia that “Johannes Rex anglie solutus te genuerit de- soluta,” hence, I am told, translates as “King John away from The united kingdomt, when single , fathered you of the an unmarried woman.”

This task turned out to be far more complex than simply I would has actually think you can!

This means Joanna may have become produced zero afterwards than simply 1189 when John partnered Isabella from Gloucester. Their mom, “Clemence” is actually probably French or Norman, once the proof regarding the patent goes regarding John’s rule means that Joan try lead out of Normandy in order to The united kingdomt during the December 1203, to set up for relationships so you’re able to Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (look for lower than). Joanna died for the Feb 1237.

(b) John’s genuine child Joan, because of the Isabella out of Angouleme (partnered to help you John into the 1200 in the age a dozen!), came to be on Gloucester into twenty two July 1210 (comprehend the Tewkesbury Annals on the Moves Collection, vol. thirty six.i, p. Laos-naiset etsivГ¤t minua 59; new Worcester Annals, ibid., vol. 36.iv, p. 399; in addition to Rotuli Litterarum Patencium getting John’s Leadership, pp. 124, 143). Here is the Joan whom then married Alexander II out-of Scotland and you will she passed away into the 1238, particular days shortly after Joanna (this could make up a number of the frustration evident involving the two feminine).